The International Football History Thread

Dirk

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Thanks for that, Dirk. I appreciate the clarification.

I can see "asterisk" wins. it helps to clarify the picture. I don't have a problem with that.

With regard to your comment on professionals, I'm going to do some more digging on that because I read a football history book from my local library not long ago which I am sure said that although club football in England became professional in the late 19th century, the FA would not allow professionals to represent England until much later and even when they relented, they insisted on the England Captain being an amateur right up to (I think) the mid 1930's.

Cornish Piskie : You're right here (and I was wrong concerning the early 4 matches between Germany and England from 1908-1913 (we never played again until 1930 (for obvious reasons) ) . The English team also consists of Amateurs like the German (but because we didn't have Professional football only Amateur football at that time, we count these matches as official DFB matches. Explains why the England FA only has 32 matches between England and Germany with an even balance of 13W-6D-13L and the German FA has a negative Balance for our team with 13W-7D-16L against England). Maybe the English FA should use our statistics too, this would "pimp up" your stats because in those 4 matches (3Wins-1 Draw) between 1908-1913 you scored 19 Goals (!!!) and conced only 3 ;)

btw: The 0-9 at Oxford in 1909 still counts as the highest loss Germany ever got (and only 3 years later at the Olympics in 1912 in Stockholm we got the highest win of 16-0 against Russia (The German Gottfried Fuchs scored 10 Goals in this match :lol:, weird times for Football)

I don't know if you're interested in it but I found a nice (german) article about the 1909 match on the website of the popular German Football Magazine "11 Freunde (11 Friends)" where they mentioned that the DFB even got the date wrong in his statistics and that there are some myths about this match. The German team came to England by ship and it must've been some hell at the channel between Calais and Dover because most players were "feeding the fish" (aka seasick). Yeah, we Germans are not made for sailing on the water (we were more known for "sailing under the water surface" ;) ) and that many players still feeling very unwell during the match :D. But the German Keeper (from Holstein Kiel who won its only German Championship in 1912) must have been the hero for the English spectators (6000 at Oxford) although he got 9 Dingers. But after the match he got the Ball as a gift and the english fans applauded him and even carried him off the field :D

For reference: https://www.11freunde.de/artikel/maerz-1909-england-deutschland-90 (unfortunately the article is only in German)
 
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Cornish Piskie

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Cornish Piskie : You're right here (and I was wrong concerning the early 4 matches between Germany and England from 1908-1913 (we never played again until 1930 (for obvious reasons) ) . The English team also consists of Amateurs like the German (but because we didn't have Professional football only Amateur football at that time, we count these matches as official DFB matches. Explains why the England FA only has 32 matches between England and Germany with an even balance of 13W-6D-13L and the German FA has a negative Balance for our team with 13W-7D-16L against England). Maybe the English FA should use our statistics too, this would "pimp up" your stats because in those 4 matches (3Wins-1 Draw) between 1908-1913 you scored 19 Goals (!!!) and conced only 3 ;)

btw: The 0-9 at Oxford in 1909 still counts as the highest loss Germany ever got (and only 3 years later at the Olympics in 1912 in Stockholm we got the highest win of 16-0 against Russia (The German Gottfried Fuchs scored 10 Goals in this match :lol:, weird times for Football)

I don't know if you're interested in it but I found a nice (german) article about the 1909 match on the website of the popular German Football Magazine "11 Freunde (11 Friends)" where they mentioned that the DFB even got the date wrong in his statistics and that there are some myths about this match. The German team came to England by ship and it must've been some hell at the channel between Calais and Dover because most players were "feeding the fish" (aka seasick). Yeah, we Germans are not made for sailing on the water (we were more known for "sailing under the water surface" ;) ) and that many players still feeling very unwell during the match :D. But the German Keeper (from Holstein Kiel who won its only German Championship in 1912) must have been the hero for the English spectators (6000 at Oxford) although he got 9 Dingers. But after the match he got the Ball as a gift and the english fans applauded him and even carried him off the field :D

For reference: https://www.11freunde.de/artikel/maerz-1909-england-deutschland-90 (unfortunately the article is only in German)


Thank you very much for the post. I've tried to translate it online but my Charles Babbage Original, steam driven clunker isn't up to the task. I took French and Spanish at school so have no German language skills at all (my Spanish has gone pretty much by the wayside too, actually) I'll have to get my other half onto translating your page. I look forward to reading it.

I often find reading the early history of the game most fascinating and often rather humorous. The book I referred to in my previous post is called "Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football", by Richard Sanders.

For anybody who is interested, the ISBN is 978-0-553-81935-9. I recommend it as a thoroughly informative and entertaining read. It covers the period 1846 to 1914 and if you thought players and fans are ill disciplined today, read the first chapter, which covers the Shrove Tuesday match between All Saints and St Peter's in Derbyshire in 1846 where the Mayor of Derby, his entire constabulary and a specially drafted in troop of dragoons attempted to stop the game from going ahead. Fat chance.

I will check through the book to see if any mention is made of the early matches between England and Germany that your magazine discusses, Dirk.

Once again, thanks for the post.
Regards
 

Dirk

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For anybody who is interested, the ISBN is 978-0-553-81935-9. I recommend it as a thoroughly informative and entertaining read. It covers the period 1846 to 1914 and if you thought players and fans are ill disciplined today, read the first chapter, which covers the Shrove Tuesday match between All Saints and St Peter's in Derbyshire in 1846 where the Mayor of Derby, his entire constabulary and a specially drafted in troop of dragoons attempted to stop the game from going ahead. Fat chance.

I will check through the book to see if any mention is made of the early matches between England and Germany that your magazine discusses, Dirk.

Once again, thanks for the post.
Regards

You're welcome. And my thanks too for the ISBN of the book. Will order this from amazon.co.uk (try to do it before the Brexit and before I have to pay taxes on it ;) ).
I have many books about the history of english league football and about the british football stadiums ( Simon Inglis: Football Grounds of Great Britain fascinated me ) and I am a statistic nerd so I bought from the 80's on many years Rothman's Football Yearbook (before it became Sky's Yearbook) but all these books are only about club football because that's my main interest (the formation of the 1st professional football league in 1888 and the 12 founder members (11 except Accrington still playing in one of the 4 "divisions" (yeah I know they are all renamed but for me it's still Div1 - Div4 (and I stopped buying the stats yearbooks when you had to do the "asterisk" thing, that a Div4 Championship is nowadays a League Two Championship. I am too old for this :D)
Anyway, I am babbling and going off topic. I only wanted to say that I don't know much about the English National team from this early days and so I didn't know that the English FA had the habit of letting only amateurs play until 1930. I thought they used their professionals.

btw: Years ago I read somewhere that back in the early days of World Cup Football the FA denied to take part in these early World Cups. Was this an arrogant behaviour or had this other reasons?
Germany for example was always eager to take part. They couldn't afford to take part in the first WC in 1930 in Uruguay because of the high costs (World Economy crisis hit Germany very hard (plus the WWI Reparations) so they denied but in 1934/38 they took part. In 1950 we weren't allowed to take part because we were still banned from international tournaments (our first match after WWII was in November 1950 when again our swiss friends were the 1st who played against us (like in 1920 when they were the 1st who wanted to play against us, so we have a special relationship with Switzerland). So we were absent only in 1930 and 1950 for known reasons but what were the reasons for the FA? Your first World Cup was in 1950, right? And your first fiasco with an 0-1 loss against (then) football nobody USA ;) (althought your greats like Tom Finney, Billy Wright, Stan Mortensen etc were playing)

I'll have to get my other half onto translating your page.

Maybe your other half can translate this article, too. Good exercise ;). It's about the mentioned 1-0 victory in 1950.

https://www.11freunde.de/artikel/wm-1950-als-die-usa-gegen-england-gewann

funny again: The mighty english team lost against a team of students, teacher and a hearse driver (Leichenwagenfahrer) :D. The Press in England thought that the News Agency Reuter transmitted the wrong result and they printed a 10-1 for England instead of the correct 0-1 :lol:


edit: Maybe a Mod (Salty or Super_Horns) can cut out our posts about the historical matches and copy them in a new thread? Not that we are banned for derailing the important "friendlies thread"? ;)
 
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Yeah it was arrogance. There was a general belief that because football was invented by the UK, the rest of the world was not worth bothering with. We then realised how daft the FA had been when we lost to the US in 1950.

Aside from 1966 and all that, we've been playing catch up ever since at international level. We were pretty good at club level post Cruyff/Beckenbauer up to Heysel and then from 04/05 to 11/12 (though the latter period contained mostly foreign players). But we've only had that one decent spell at international level which sums up the historical ineptitude of the FA quite well.
 

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A few points on the 1950 farrago that I've picked up from various sources along the way:

Until that time England - and indeed, Scotland too, had no intention of taking part in the world cup. They considered it beneath them. The FA's tactic was to wait to see whoever won the world cup then challenge them to a friendly and beat them thus suggesting (but never verbally stated) that we can beat the official world champions anytime. Bring 'em on.

In November 1934, newly crowned world champions Italy came to Highbury. It was their first match since winning the world cup and they came to win. By whatever means necessary. The Italian government took the match so seriously that Mussolini offered each Italian player a new Alfa Romeo car if they won. Woooow..!!

England fielded 7 Arsenal players (the English record for the number of players from one team in a match to this day) and a young Stanley Matthews gained only his second cap in this game.

The match became known as the battle of Highbury when the Italians made their intent quite clear. Unfortunately, they lost a defender early on and were reduced to ten players for the entire game which would have done nothing for their mood. England raced into a 3-0 lead within 12 minutes and then the thuggery began. Eddie Hapgood had his nose broken, Bowden was reduced to a hobbling passenger from an ankle injury, Ted Drake was punched and Eric Brook had his arm broken. The rest of the match was littered with fouls and dirty play as England decided they would show the Italians they could look after themselves too. We are not easily intimidated. Meazza scored twice for Italy in the second half but England ran out 3-2 winners

As an indication as to who were the true world champions the match decided nothing. The Italians were handicapped by losing their best defender after only a few minutes, enabling England to score early goals, but Italy disgraced themselves in what should have been a showpiece match.

Neither country wanted to repeat the exercise after the 1938 world cup. I can't think why.

England withdrew from FIFA in 1928 so took no part in any pre-war world cup. But when the 1950 tournament was being organised, FIFA desperately wanted England and Scotland to participate. Let's not forget or undervalue the role that Scotland had in the early development of the game. They were important and their participation mattered just as much to FIFA as England's .

FIFA made an offer to the British FA's that the Home Internationals of 1950 would also be a World Cup Qualifying group and both the winners and runners up would qualify for the 1950 World Cup. It was clearly expected that England and Scotland would fill the top two berths in the championship.

As it turned out, England beat the Scots 1-0 at Hampden Park in the final match and thus qualified as champions with Scotland in second place. However, the proud SFA declined to accept their place at the world cup as runners up behind England. They would go as British champions or not at all.

Could you see anybody spurning such an offer today..? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.

England went to Brazil for the tournament but showed that their hitherto insularity had left them woefully inadequate in organisational skills ........ But remember, they only qualified in mid April for a tournament that took place in June. And that was a major contributing factor in their failure. Add to this the disdain they showed for the world cup.... that it was little more than an end-of-season Summer tour. A bunch of glorified friendlies against inferior opposition.

Preparation was non-existent. They were in no way ready for a series of tough matches in the heat and humidity of an equatorial country. England beat Chile 2-0 in Rio in their first match which was played in hot temperature and very high humidity. The players were left drained by the experience but ludicrously, Walter Winterbottom fielded the same XI in the match against USA four days later after a gruelling journey to Belo Horizonte.

Four days later with again the same team selected, England lost 0-1 to Spain back in Rio, and were despatched from the tournament in ignominy. It was a calamitous experience with the defeat by USA as merely the worst part of a horrible nightmare.

Arrogance, lack of preparation, no time for acclimatisation and travel / hotel / training arrangements that were left up to the team manager to organise once they got there, were all contributory factors to the poor performance of what was actually a very good group of players who could - and should - have challenged much more seriously.


If I've rabbited on a bit too much for some peoples taste I apologise, but I do enjoy discovering the rich and sometimes even humorous history of this game and am keen to share what I find, and my thoughts on this, with the group.

I support Dirk's call for a dedicated football history section on the site and would be a keen contributor.

Also, please, Dirk... share your knowledge of German and European football with us. I for one would be most interested to read what you have to say and have asked my other half to translate your article for me. With much rolling up of the eyes, I'm going to get what I want. Again, thank you. You're a gentleman.
 

Dirk

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A few points on the 1950 farrago that I've picked up from various sources along the way:

Until that time England - and indeed, Scotland too, had no intention of taking part in the world cup. They considered it beneath them. The FA's tactic was to wait to see whoever won the world cup then challenge them to a friendly and beat them thus suggesting (but never verbally stated) that we can beat the official world champions anytime. Bring 'em on.

Really? That was their intention back then? Beating the World Champ after the World Cup in a friendly to show their "superiority"? Small minds :D
OK, different times back then, friendlies had a higher value than today.
But tbh this "thinking" still exists nowadays. To beat the World Champ in a meaningless friendly to show that they are "better" .
After Argentina lost in 2014 against us in the World Cup final, we played them a few months again in a friendly in Germany (so this isn't even off topic). In this friendly we honoured the retired players like Miro Klose (record goalscorer in World Cup History), Philipp Lahm, Per Mertesacker. We fielded not our best team (because normally we don't give a damn about the result in a friendly, it's mostly to experiment with the formation. Coach Löw just said it 2 days ago again, that he isn't so much interested in the result of the friendly against France but it's about to test some formation) but for Argentina it must've been the real final and the proof that they are the real World Champions :D. So, we lost our first match after the World Cup at home against Argentina with what? 4-0? Anyway, we are still World Champions and Argentina lost 2 finals against us, the 0-4 in the friendly proofed only that we didn't give a damn about the result in a friendly.

England fielded 7 Arsenal players (the English record for the number of players from one team in a match to this day) and a young Stanley Matthews gained only his second cap in this game.

The match became known as the battle of Highbury when the Italians made their intent quite clear. Unfortunately, they lost a defender early on and were reduced to ten players for the entire game which would have done nothing for their mood. England raced into a 3-0 lead within 12 minutes and then the thuggery began. Eddie Hapgood had his nose broken, Bowden was reduced to a hobbling passenger from an ankle injury, Ted Drake was punched and Eric Brook had his arm broken. The rest of the match was littered with fouls and dirty play as England decided they would show the Italians they could look after themselves too. We are not easily intimidated. Meazza scored twice for Italy in the second half but England ran out 3-2 winners

Interesting. Didn't know that. I am not so familiar with the English National teams History (except from 1966 onwards ;) ). Tbh there are still some myths and doubts about the World Cup 1934 in Italy (Germany reached 3rd place, winning against Austria's "Wunderteam" in the "little final" ) that Italy's win was "directed" to support the "superiority of fascism" (yeah I know sounds hilarious now but back then such tournaments were also more than only a tournament for the fascist dictators (see the Olympics 1936)

England withdrew from FIFA in 1928 so took no part in any pre-war world cup. But when the 1950 tournament was being organised, FIFA desperately wanted England and Scotland to participate. Let's not forget or undervalue the role that Scotland had in the early development of the game. They were important and their participation mattered just as much to FIFA as England's .

Seems a "known pattern" for England to withdrew from Organizations, right? ;)

If I've rabbited on a bit too much for some peoples taste I apologise, but I do enjoy discovering the rich and sometimes even humorous history of this game and am keen to share what I find, and my thoughts on this, with the group.

No need to apologise. I very much enjoyed reading it. If anyone isn't interested he can skip reading it.
Go on with this, please. Don't stop with it. As I said I am also very much interested in football history since childhood.
 
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Cornish Piskie

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Really? That was their intention back then? Beating the World Champ after the World Cup in a friendly to show their "superiority"? Small minds :D
OK, different times back then, friendlies had a higher value than today.
But tbh this "thinking" still exists nowadays. To beat the World Champ in a meaningless friendly to show that they are "better" .

Scotland did it to us in 1967. They beat us 3-2 in the Home International match at Wembley and as with England before, they didn't exactly claim to be <ahem> world champions themselves.... they left it to the Scottish press. One paper from north of the border went so far as to demand that England hand over the Jules Rimet Trophy...!!

After Argentina lost in 2014 against us in the World Cup final, we played them a few months again in a friendly in Germany (so this isn't even off topic). In this friendly we honoured the retired players like Miro Klose (record goalscorer in World Cup History), Philipp Lahm, Per Mertesacker. We fielded not our best team (because normally we don't give a damn about the result in a friendly, it's mostly to experiment with the formation. Coach Löw just said it 2 days ago again, that he isn't so much interested in the result of the friendly against France but it's about to test some formation) but for Argentina it must've been the real final and the proof that they are the real World Champions :D. So, we lost our first match after the World Cup at home against Argentina with what? 4-0? Anyway, we are still World Champions and Argentina lost 2 finals against us, the 0-4 in the friendly proofed only that we didn't give a damn about the result in a friendly.

I don't like friendlies because they can affect the world rankings and thus the pot from which we get drawn in tournaments. We're OK this time because we're coming out of Pot 2 for the World Cup but it only takes a few results to go the wrong way in friendlies... and that includes other teams getting unexpected wins.... to send us slipping down the rankings and back into Pot 3.

The FA does all these friendlies for one thing and one thing only. Money. It's not as if English football isn't awash with money right now anyway, but their greed knows no boundaries. Scrap the meaningless friendlies. They don't enable any tactical or team preparation because the top players can't be bothered to turn up anyway.

Interesting. Didn't know that. I am not so familiar with the English National teams History (except from 1966 onwards ;) ). Tbh there are still some myths and doubts about the World Cup 1934 in Italy (Germany reached 3rd place, winning against Austria's "Wunderteam" in the "little final" ) that Italy's win was "directed" to support the "superiority of fascism" (yeah I know sounds hilarious now but back then such tournaments were also more than only a tournament for the fascist dictators (see the Olympics 1936)

I don't disbelieve such things at all. Of course I'm aware of the Olympic Games of 1936, but the great Jesse Owens answered that in the best possible way. The spirit of sportsmanship was alive at those Games though. During the heats of the 200 metres, German sprinter Luz Long noticed a technical deficiency in Owen's sprinting and gave him advice how to correct it. Owens defeated Long in the final to take the gold medal, and Long was the first to congratulate him at the finishing line.


Seems a "known pattern" for England to withdrew from Organizations, right? ;)

I know exactly what you're talking about and sadly, I have to say you're right.


No need to apologise. I very much enjoyed reading it. If anyone isn't interested he can skip reading it.
Go on with this, please. Don't stop with it. As I said I am also very much interested in football history since childhood.

I've only become interested in football in the last couple of years. I grew up in a rugby playing family and that is where my true sporting love lies. I saw Germany compete in the Rugby 7's tournament at Twickenham some years ago. They competed very fiercely and even ran Canada (a long established rugby playing nation) close. Please don't go getting good at rugby too. Leave us something we might be able to beat you at. :bg:


I'm glad I've found this site though because it is open, inclusive and everybody here talks much more sense than anywhere else I've looked.

On another site I tried, I became the target of choice for an Australian troll who really... REALLY didn't like women talking about sport. A misogynist Okker with a pretentious habit of telling people about their own country from the other side of the world. He insisted that everybody call Wales "Cymru" and that sort of thing.

He even tried to tell a Scottish poster to call Scotland "Alba" because Scotland is a sop to the English. I won't repeat the post he got in reply. It wasn't pleasant.

I got one over on him once though. He made a ranting post about how his own team had been robbed in their last match by an incompetent assistant referee who failed to flag when the opposition took a throw in and the ball was thrown to a player who was miles offside, leading to the goal that cost his team the game.

As good luck would have it, I was the first to pick up on his post and replied "I thought you couldn't be offside from a throw in?"

Priceless. :p



So, sadly Dirk, the lame brained and small minded are among us, but thankfully, not on here.

I'm not going to post on this thread again ("Hooray" I hear you all cheer..!!). Instead I'll start a football history thread somewhere and everybody who has a snippet or fact, or even a funny yarn to tell about anything of a historical nature is invited to contribute.

All offerings welcomed.
 

Cornish Piskie

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This is for anybody who wants to talk about the history of this great game at international level.

Contributions that inform, discuss or entertain on football from all countries are welcome.

Request to Admins to make this a sticky.
 

Dirk

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Thanks, Salty
This is for anybody who wants to talk about the history of this great game at international level.

Contributions that inform, discuss or entertain on football from all countries are welcome.

Request to Admins to make this a sticky.

Unfortunately now it looks like that I am the TO of this thread after Sallty moved our discussion (after I asked him if he could do that) from the "International friendlies" thread into your new thread. I hope you don't mind. It was your good idea to open this thread and not mine ;)
 

Bobbin'

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I often find reading the early history of the game most fascinating and often rather humorous. The book I referred to in my previous post is called "Beastly Fury: The Strange Birth Of British Football", by Richard Sanders.

Thanks for this, have just downloaded onto my Kindle ready for holiday in a couple of weeks.
 

Dirk

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Weekend. At last some time to answer your post.

I don't disbelieve such things at all. Of course I'm aware of the Olympic Games of 1936, but the great Jesse Owens answered that in the best possible way. The spirit of sportsmanship was alive at those Games though. During the heats of the 200 metres, German sprinter Luz Long noticed a technical deficiency in Owen's sprinting and gave him advice how to correct it. Owens defeated Long in the final to take the gold medal, and Long was the first to congratulate him at the finishing line.

Carl Ludwig "Luz" Long, the archetype for Hitler's "Aryan race" delusions, tall, blond, blue-eyed, lost against the "Neger (sorry for that word but it was said back then)" (in the long jumps btw not the sprint) ;). Hitler had been fuming. Long even embraced Owens after his record jump and Hitler's Deputy Rudolf Heß´later said to him that he should never again dare to embrace a "Neger" (sorry again). Long wasn't a resistance fighter, don't get me wrong, but he showed here civil courage. And Jesse Owens never forgot that and honoured him later in his autobiography as "the Nazi who fought with him against Hitler". They became friends. Long died only 7 years later in combat, 1943 in Sicily, aged 30



btw: At that time the USA still had their own racism. In sports for example black players had to play the national pastime Baseball in a "Negro Baseball League" and weren't allowed to play in the Major League. Jackie Robinson became the first black player since 1888 to make it in the Major League with the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1947. Seems that in athletics they were faster.

Another "bizarre" action in front of Fascism leaders was at the friendly in 1938 in Berlin in front of 110.000 spectators: Germany vs England 3-6
The English team raised their hands when the german anthem was played. The Players didn't want to do it but the english politicians demanded it so they obeyed. The legendary Stanley Matthews said it later, that England's Captain Eddie Hapgood was fuming but the english ambassador in Berlin persuaded him to show this "gesture" to the Nazi authorities in the stadium (Hitler wasn't there but Reichsmarshall Göring and Propagandaminister Goebbels)



I've only become interested in football in the last couple of years. I grew up in a rugby playing family and that is where my true sporting love lies. I saw Germany compete in the Rugby 7's tournament at Twickenham some years ago. They competed very fiercely and even ran Canada (a long established rugby playing nation) close. Please don't go getting good at rugby too. Leave us something we might be able to beat you at. :bg:

We play Rugby in Germany? ;). Seriously, there's no danger, Rugby is a pure Amateur sports here and will never attract us so much that we are able to compete with the big guns like England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the other non Europeans. I really like Rugby and whenever it is shown in German TV (World Championships or the Six Nations matches) I'll watch it (I even know the rules and have to explain them always when someone is watching it with me and is lost by the action on the field ;)

I'm glad I've found this site though because it is open, inclusive and everybody here talks much more sense than anywhere else I've looked.

I was also glad when I found this forum. It was the first time that I became a member in a foreign football forum. I am member in German footy boards of course but never dared to express my thoughts in a foreign forum. But after the Euro 2016 and the EU Referendum I wanted to see how they "tick" in UK's footy forums. And so I came first to 1FF (and a few days later another one). Met some great guys here, very helpful and they read over many lapses from me in english grammar and I felt welcome right from the beginning and so I hope this forum will stay for a long time although the recent "turmoil".

On another site I tried, I became the target of choice for an Australian troll who really... REALLY didn't like women talking about sport. A misogynist Okker with a pretentious habit of telling people about their own country from the other side of the world. He insisted that everybody call Wales "Cymru" and that sort of thing.

What? Really? I love to talk with women about football. At HSV home matches we have some really enthusiastic women and they know their stuff

I hate every form of misogyny (plus homo- and xenophobia) and I love watching women's football (that's why I opened here the thread for the Women's Euro 2017 )
 
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Thanks, Salty


Unfortunately now it looks like that I am the TO of this thread after Sallty moved our discussion (after I asked him if he could do that) from the "International friendlies" thread into your new thread. I hope you don't mind. It was your good idea to open this thread and not mine ;)
Actually it was mine you cheeky git!
 

Dirk

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Thanks for honouring this thread with your appearance and even a post.
 

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Going back to our previous discussion, Dirk, regarding amateur players in the England team into the 20th century, I've found some details about Corinthian FC, founded in 1882 and who continued in existence until 1939 when they were dissolved to merge with Casuals FC to form Corinthian Casuals FC.

The club was founded to promote sportsmanship and fair play, and champion the ideals of amateurism, The players were famed, above all, for their ethos of “sportsmanship, fair play and playing for the love of the game”. The 'Corinthian Spirit’ was summed up by Chairman Lane Jackson in their attitude to penalties; “As far as we are concerned, a gentleman would never commit a deliberate foul on an opponent. So, if a penalty is awarded against the Corinthians, our goalkeeper shall stand aside, lean languidly on the goalpost and watch the ball being kicked into his goal. If the Corinthians themselves win a penalty, our captain shall take a short run-up and give the ball a jolly good whack over the crossbar.”

The club refused to join the league or enter the FA Cup. They had a rule which said: "The club is forbidden to compete for any challenge cup or prizes of any description. " The purpose of their existence is to maintain a strict amateur code and to provide players for the England national team." They did take part in the FA Charity Shield and before that, its forerunner, The Sheriff of London Charity Shield, but this was to raise funds for charity and considered non-competitive at that time.

Between 1889 and 1927, a total of 17 Corinthian players represented England, winning a total of 73 caps including the legendary C B Fry, who was probably the greatest sporting all-rounder of all time.
Not only a first class scholar at Oxford, he won Blues for his athletic prowess at high jump, 100 yards, hurdles, speed skating and equaled the world record for the long jump. He was also a decent golfer too. His sporting talents didn't stop there. He played rugby for Oxford University and The Barbarians. His attempt, however, to persuade Germans to take up playing cricket failed to bear fruit. :bg:

England's teams in their matches against Wales in 1894 and 1895 were made up entirely of players who, at one time or another played for Corinthians.

Their amateur code didn't stop them being a decent team though, indeed, in 1904 they beat Manchester United 11-3 which remains United's record defeat to this day.

Corinthian FC were the first English club to tour beyond Europe and these tours are largely credited with popularising football around the world; In Brazil, SC Corinthians Paulista, are named after the club (indeed, Charles Miller considered the father of football in Brazil, played for the club in 1892) and Real Madrid, wear white to this day in their honour. Zetjun Corinthians of Malta named themselves in the club's honour and in 1904 a Swedish tournament named The Corinthian Bowl was set up in commemoration of their visit.

It seems to me a shame that this spirit of amateurism has passed. For sure, football has to make money and competition is the essence of the game.... I don't dispute that..... but it must have been a wonderful thing to have a club with such a fine, noble and romantic ethic. Playing for the love of the game and their only aspiration being that if they became good enough, they may gain the privilege of playing for their country.... without financial gain.
 

Dirk

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Yes, Corinthians. I read about their history back in my youth when I wondered about the Brazilian Corinthians Club and where they get the name from. I like such stories.
Another famed Amateur club is the Scottish Queens Park FC (not to mix up with the London Club Queens Park Rangers). Queens Park is the only Amateur club playing in the Scottish Football League (actually in the Scottish League One). Although an Amateur club they play in Glasgows Hampden Park (a bit oversized for them but hey.....:D ).
I follow a bit their fortunes since the late 80's. Back then I wrote a letter to the club asking for information about their history (remember: Pre-internet era, no info available at a fingertip. I was always interested in the history of the british football leagues (english and scottish) and this club raised my attention due to the amateur status in a professional league.
I got the address by calling our german footy mag "Kicker" for a mail-address and they kindly helped me out. I included a self adressed envelope (SAE) and an international reply coupon (IRC) to cover their costs for a stamp and only 2 weeks later I got a little parcel with a book called "The Scottish Football League Review", a season's review for all Scottish clubs inclusive a brief history, a Queens Park FC matchday programme and a very nice hand-written letter where they thanked me for my interest. Never expected this, I thought I would get a small leaflet with the clubs history (hence the SAE and IRC for postage) and wrote back because I wanted to pay for the book. But they said I should take this as a gift and that they were pleased that a football fan from Germany takes an interest in a scottish amateur club. Very nice gesture. I always liked the Scots

btw: Queens Park's motto/slogan is "Ludere causa Ludendi“ (in German " Zu spielen um des Spielens willen" and in English (maybe) "To play for the sake of playing" ). Nice one.
 
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Cornish Piskie

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What a lovely story. It's nice to read of a club responding to an inquiry in that way.

I've always thought that Scottish football and its supporters have been often unfairly maligned down the years. I've never met a Scot I didn't like. Shortly after we graduated from university in 2005, we went to Edinburgh (non football related now, but hell, bear me out) for the Make Poverty History weekend. Despite having hordes of people descend on the city, the Scots were very welcoming and positive about what we were there for.

Fortunately for me, I've grown up in the Internet age and enjoy the luxury of being able to use the "easy resource." But I still enjoy researching from books....asking the questions... doing the digging.... finding the answers.... And football is a very rich mine to go digging in to find fascinating stories.

Perhaps I'm still a student at heart. LOL.
 

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This is a nice thread :)

Apologies in advance if none of this comes as news but re the discussion concerning Corinthian FC, it's perhaps worth noting that the successor club, Corinthian-Casuals still exist and retain their amateur status to this day. They've led a somewhat nomadic existence but have been settled in Tolworth, near Kingston-upon-Thames, where I grew up, for the past 25 years and play their football in the eighth tier of English football, making them the highest ranked amateur side in the country. Indeed, they are, at this very moment, currently sitting in an impressive 2nd place in the Ismthian Div One South. They maintain links with the rather larger Brazilian club that bear their name - they were out there for a friendly a couple of years back and do apparently have something by way of a Brazilian fanbase. You suspect that few English minnows can make similar claims!
 

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This is a nice thread :)

Apologies in advance if none of this comes as news

No need for apologies, TPP. Thanks for your post. Nice to see that they (Corinthian Casuals) still maintain relations with the professional club from Brazil.

btw: I like the name of the club. It's a nice distraction of the boring City name plus FC or United/City/Town/County naming. Another nice distraction are the Wanderers Clubs (Wolverhampton, Bolton, Wycombe) or the Rovers (Blackburn, Bristol) and then my personal favourites, the Albion clubs (BrightonHove, Burton and especially one of the founder members of the original football league in 1888, West Bromwich Albion.)

I learned that Albion is the "archaic" name for Great Britain. At least that's what wiki tells me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion

This isn't found so often in the naming in UK, right? I mean to name the Football club after the county (country) (and I don't mean setting a County behind it, more like we do it in Germany with Bayern (Bavaria) Munich, Hessen (Hessia) Kassel, Sachsen (Saxony) Leipzig or Westfalia Herne for example to show the federal state the club is playing in right in the name.
And many clubs still bear the name of our long gone german country, the Kingdom of Preußen(Prussia). You'll find the name in German in clubs like Preußen Münster or in Latin in Borussia (Dortmund, Mönchengladbach) and then other clubs named themselves to show the "German cultural area" like Alemannia (Aachen), Teutonia, or Germania before the City name, which means nothing else than "Deutschland (Germany)" (damn, I hope I've explained this right in English ;) )
Do you have similar naming of lower league clubs.


btw: An anecdote about the "birth of German football". Konrad Koch, a teacher in Braunschweig ( the city of my alma mater) brought the rules to Germany in 1874 after a visit to England. He thought this would be a nice game to give his students some recreation. Back then Germany ( or correctly: the German Empire) was more into physical training to "form the boys for the military" and many sports teachers condemned this new "Fußball (football)" as "Fußlümmelei" (sorry, no translation found only obscene ones ;) ) or "the english disease" and "anti-germanic". Thank God they couldn't stop the interest in this game which soon became our most popular game.

Here's a short (english) biography of the man who brought us Germans to football: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Koch
(although it mentions that there's no hint that Koch brought the rules of football to Germany after a visit to England like other sources and articles. But he had to get them from somewhere, right? )
 
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Cornish Piskie

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The name of Albion is derived from the Latin "Albus" (meaning 'White') and was given by the Romans who looked across the Channel from Gaul (France) and saw the White Cliffs of Dover.

Surprisingly, none of the clubs you listed who carry the name Albion play in white.

It's a very interesting story on the birth of German football, Dirk. I'm not surprised that sport was used in such a manner there. The sporting concepts of physical fitness, teamwork, self sacrifice for the good of the team and the ability to perform under pressure are exactly the kind of attributes required by future soldiers.

It's not surprising though, that some should attempt to prevent the game flourishing there. Officialdom took a dim view of sport here in the Middle Ages too. There is a long standing legend that King Henry IV banned football from being played in the English Shires because men were supposed to use their spare time at weekends for archery practice. At this time, the Hundred Years War was in full swing and the Longbow was responsible for English armies inflicting very heavy defeats on the French at Poitiers and Agincourt so it would not be surprising if such an edict did actually take place.

Didn't stop people playing football though.

This game is addictive.
 

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Thanks for the update on Corinthian Casuals, Pineapple. I too think it's a good thing that the connection between the English and Brazilian clubs is maintained. Do you ever go to watch them?

I suppose it would be too much to expect that they retain the sporting ethic of their predecessors, but it sounds like they're doing well and let's hope they can climb the ladder.

We do have some club names which are a little unusual. Plymouth Argyle, Accrington Stanley and Crewe Alexandra play in Leagues One and Two. Accrington Stanley are not to be confused with the Accrington club who were founder members of the league in 1888. That club was dissolved in the 1960's. Milton Keynes Dons take their name from the nickname of the former Wimbledon club, from whom they are derived, having relocated to Milton Keynes some 20 or so years ago.

Aston Shakespeare were neighbours of Aston Villa but were last involved in the FA Cup in 1888.

Gitanos, who also flourished in the1880's was made up of Spanish expatriates. The word 'Gitano' is Spanish for 'Gypsies'. American Julian Sturgess played for Gitanos, and later with Wanderers, became the first foreigner to play in an FA Cup Final.

London Olympic played in the FA Cup in 1883, some 13 years before Pierre de Coubertin revived the Olympic Games



Perhaps the oddest club name, at least that I can find, is Billingham Synthonia, based in Billingham near Middlesbrough they take their name from Synthetic Ammonia, an agricultural fertiliser made in the factory where they players who made up the team worked. They last reached the FA Cup First Round in 1990, but perhaps their biggest achievement was to go the entire 1950/51 season in the (then) Northern League without conceding a goal at home. Their goalkeeper saved a penalty in the final minutes of the last match of the season to preserve the record.

I bet he didn't have to buy his own beer all night after that game..!!
 

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