If it wasn't for UKIP........

C

Captain Scumbag

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I don't agree with the arbitrary separation of politics and philosophy, or rather the turn towards a positivist politics and an abstract, mystified philosophy. It's folly to attempt separate the two.
Well, fortunately I wasn’t trying to.

I posited a simple ‘causal relevance' vs. ‘moral relevance’ category distinction because I think it’s useful when discussing distressing events, especially if the discussion is geared towards devising some kind of political solution.

You may disagree regarding its usefulness, but please don’t mistake the intention. The intention is to aid efforts to focus political discussion on the causal events, decisions, etc. that have obvious moral relevance. This has nothing to do with positivism – quite the opposite actually, at least using my dilettante understanding of that term.
So the political reaction to the Jo Cox murder doesn't locate its value position in the fundamental belief that "a person shouldn't commit murder", culpability existing solely in the autonomous actions of Mair; it identifies Mair as representative of a larger threat to its value system.
That isn’t my position. I certainly favour a moral order in which perpetrators are held primarily responsible for their crimes; but since “primarily” isn’t a synonym for “solely”, there is scope for a secondary analysis in which a lesser degree of culpability may be attributed to third parties. I made this explicitly clear in one of my previous posts.

At the same time, though, I don’t think people should be given carte blanche to throw the blame around willy-nilly. We’re talking about a horrifically violent murder here. To attribute a share of the blame to a person or group that had no direct involvement is quite a charge – one that requires a much stronger standard of argument than I’ve encountered so far. Which brings me neatly to…
Viewed in that way, it's difficult to absolve UKIP of any blame when they are part of a socio-political culture that seems intent on rolling back certain enlightenment values. Yeah, they might not invoke people to commit murder, but they help create the conditions for events like that.
This is heavy on assertion but light on detail and argument, so a few questions:

What enlightenment values do you have in mind? How is UKIP rolling them back (or at least trying to)? How does this tie into or support the charge that UKIP is partly to blame for Jo Cox’s murder? If UKIP is part of a problematic socio-political culture, do you think other parties are complicit in this? If so, which ones?
 
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Abertawe

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If it wasn't for UKIP Paul Nuttall may not be making an utter c*** of himself for the world to see.
 

Stevencc

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I reckon he'd have found another avenue for his cuntishness.
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
I was the first man on the moon - Paul Nuttall
It was me who got Nelson Mandela out of prison - Paul Nuttall
I was on the Titanic me - Paul Nuttall
It was me who invented chopsticks - Paul Nuttall
I played Dark Souls once and never got killed - Paul Nuttall
I built the Great Wall of China on me own, on me dinner break - Paul Nuttall
I'm David Attenborough's grandad me - Paul Nuttall
 

Stevencc

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I was the first man on the moon - Paul Nuttall
It was me who got Nelson Mandela out of prison - Paul Nuttall
I was on the Titanic me - Paul Nuttall
It was me who invented chopsticks - Paul Nuttall
I played Dark Souls once and never got killed - Paul Nuttall
I built the Great Wall of China on me own, on me dinner break - Paul Nuttall
I'm David Attenborough's grandad me - Paul Nuttall

Fucking lying twat.
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
Well spotted. All the others are plausible.I was wondering if anyone would be able to identify the bullshit one.
 
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johnnytodd

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QUOTE="Red, post: 580187, member: 300"]I was the first man on the moon - Paul Nuttall
It was me who got Nelson Mandela out of prison - Paul Nuttall
I was on the Titanic me - Paul Nuttall
It was me who invented chopsticks - Paul Nuttall
I played Dark Souls once and never got killed - Paul Nuttall
I built the Great Wall of China on me own, on me dinner break - Paul Nuttall
I'm David Attenborough's grandad me - Paul Nuttall[/QUOTE]
I'm a Typical Liverpool fan - Paul Nuttall
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
QUOTE="Red, post: 580187, member: 300"]I was the first man on the moon - Paul Nuttall
It was me who got Nelson Mandela out of prison - Paul Nuttall
I was on the Titanic me - Paul Nuttall
It was me who invented chopsticks - Paul Nuttall
I played Dark Souls once and never got killed - Paul Nuttall
I built the Great Wall of China on me own, on me dinner break - Paul Nuttall
I'm David Attenborough's grandad me - Paul Nuttall
I'm a Typical Liverpool fan - Paul Nuttall[/QUOTE]

I somehow don't think typical Liverpool fans are right wing nutjobs. I know an Everton fan who is though.:bye:
 

johnnytodd

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I'm a Typical Liverpool fan - Paul Nuttall

I somehow don't think typical Liverpool fans are right wing nutjobs. I know an Everton fan who is though.:bye:[/QUOTE]
HAHA trapped you there, Scousers typically voted Conservative until the 70's

if ye know your history
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
I somehow don't think typical Liverpool fans are right wing nutjobs. I know an Everton fan who is though.:bye:
HAHA trapped you there, Scousers typically voted Conservative until the 70's

if ye know your history[/QUOTE]
How have you trapped me? I'm talking about contemporary Liverpool, you're talking about 70s Liverpool.
 

johnnytodd

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HAHA trapped you there, Scousers typically voted Conservative until the 70's

if ye know your history
How have you trapped me? I'm talking about contemporary Liverpool, you're talking about 70s Liverpool.[/QUOTE]
ohh shut up grumpy arse
 
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Abertawe

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Crunch time for UKIP tomorrow. I don't know where they go if they fail to win the seat. Some parts of the constituency voted leave by something like 80%, if they can't win this seat with their leader standing they're finished.
 
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Crunch time for UKIP tomorrow. I don't know where they go if they fail to win the seat. Some parts of the constituency voted leave by something like 80%, if they can't win this seat with their leader standing they're finished.

Hopefully into a big fit of fiery snakes.
 

johnnytodd

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Crunch time for UKIP tomorrow. I don't know where they go if they fail to win the seat. Some parts of the constituency voted leave by something like 80%, if they can't win this seat with their leader standing they're finished.
They have achieved all they wanted and are basking in the PC meltdown.
 

Red

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Opposing the pedestrianisation of Norwich city centre!!!!
They have achieved all they wanted and are basking in the PC meltdown.
They have not achieved all they wanted to. The smoking ban still applied and the NHS is not wholly privatised.
 

johnnytodd

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They have not achieved all they wanted to. The smoking ban still applied and the NHS is not wholly privatised.
They wanted out of Europe as in UK Independence all the other bits were just to gain extra voters and it worked !
 

Boletus Edulis

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If it was not for UKIP there would be one less pressure group.
 

Bilo

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I think most forms of politics rely on this, TBH. If you think scaremongering or other cheap appeals to non-rational emotionalism are the preserve of "right wing populism" (a very contentious term, BTW), then I don't know what to tell you.
Happened to run some research on a tangent to this subject published recently. It was done in Sweden (I'd guess the same has been done in England, though), but right wing populist parties* throughout Europe has more in common than they have differences. The most common trait being that they try to strike fear into the population, like we discussed.

It was a three choice questionnaire: do you feel that Sweden is safer than described in the media/largely as safe as described in the media/less safe than described in the media.

In the Sweden equivalent of parliament, we have 8 parties. Seven of them, the ones there before the banks crashed, had 3%-20% of their voters choosing the last of the three alternatives (the two conservative parties managed 17 and 20%, the rest were all below 10%).
Our UKIP equivalent Sverigedemokraterna had 71% choosing the last of the three alternatives.

If any similar study on believed safety has been done in the UK, I guarantee it will show the same numbers. Of course UKIP strike fear into the population as much as they can, it's their first choice weapon, it's their whole bloody idea. And if you don't connect the dots between doing that, a lot of people approving it with their votes, and nutters thinking they have to kill politicians, then I don't know what to tell you.

* Simplest of definitions: most right wing in the parliament or equivalent, has had a significant surge in votes since 2008.
 

johnnytodd

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Happened to run some research on a tangent to this subject published recently. It was done in Sweden (I'd guess the same has been done in England, though), but right wing populist parties* throughout Europe has more in common than they have differences. The most common trait being that they try to strike fear into the population, like we discussed.

It was a three choice questionnaire: do you feel that Sweden is safer than described in the media/largely as safe as described in the media/less safe than described in the media.

In the Sweden equivalent of parliament, we have 8 parties. Seven of them, the ones there before the banks crashed, had 3%-20% of their voters choosing the last of the three alternatives (the two conservative parties managed 17 and 20%, the rest were all below 10%).
Our UKIP equivalent Sverigedemokraterna had 71% choosing the last of the three alternatives.

If any similar study on believed safety has been done in the UK, I guarantee it will show the same numbers. Of course UKIP strike fear into the population as much as they can, it's their first choice weapon, it's their whole bloody idea. And if you don't connect the dots between doing that, a lot of people approving it with their votes, and nutters thinking they have to kill politicians, then I don't know what to tell you.

* Simplest of definitions: most right wing in the parliament or equivalent, has had a significant surge in votes since 2008.
What is this fear that UKIP have spread? think you will find it was Facts..........the remain parties were the fearmongers.
 

The Paranoid Pineapple

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They're basically a complete irrelevance now. "WHO?" indeed.

Unfortunately, unless something dramatic happens to derail Brexit, the damage has already been done.
 

Abertawe

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Reckon this dude could surprise tbqh. Soldier of 20 years, policeman, Lib Dem, centre, foreign bird, OBE, outstanding bravery.

A much better bet for em than former professional footballer Nuttall.
 

Abertawe

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Reckon this dude could surprise tbqh. Soldier of 20 years, policeman, Lib Dem, centre, foreign bird, OBE, outstanding bravery.

A much better bet for em than former professional footballer Nuttall.
Well he ditched the foreign bird whilst she was breastfeeding to hook up with some mental english rose half his age and it's all gone to shit. What a sad desperate old man.

DTgc6LMX0AACTkM.jpg:large
 

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The gift that keep giving aren't they!
 

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