Black Lives Matter

[G-Dragon]

Seems like it has started in the England too. Are the police in England racist too? Or is this movement about something completely different?
Is the Black Lives Matter movement 'needed in UK' ? or Anywhere else?

 

[Murphy]

There's a case to be made that it is needed, certainly in the US and maybe in the UK (I'm not sure), but I really don't think the stunt they pulled at Heathrow is the way to go about doing it. You just create more antipathy towards the group by doing that, something which I'm guessing wasn't their aim.

 

[Christian Slater]

I don't think the plight of black folk in the UK is absent, but then it's nowhere near the scale of these protests being credible. This looks like people latching on to a cause they think relates to them because the Americans are at it. I think it's offensive to the real struggle Black Americans face in a different culture, and the wider UK population that have largely accepted the black community.

 

[JoshBCFC]

I'm a fan of the movement, but still, I find it fucked up how innocent people have been more affected by these protests then racists.

 

[Mustard]

It's a load of horseshit. The UK race problem is minimal compared to that of the US, it's much more a class issue. All BLM does is in the UK is create an us vs them mentality when there isn't one, it's divisive and irresponsible. These people are often more racist than the people they chastise. If you are black citizen in the UK you are extremely unlikely to be shot by a police officer simply because the majority of our police aren't even armed, so why are these people pretending it is our issue, and that they can do anything about it? The same goes for unlawful killing by any method - extremely rare.

If a black man was shot in Lambeth by a police officer, do these people reckon the American BLM campaigners would be shutting down the roads leading to JFK? This screams of people trying to be seen to be doing the right thing and gain Twitter followers, when in reality they are so misguided as to the actual issues this country faces. If there is any institutional racism in this country (and I don't doubt there is - but it's nowhere near the extent that there is in the US, which even then is overplayed), it certainly isn't to the extent where you can be a twat and try to disrupt people going on holiday.

It's actually kind of hilarious that they did this on the anniversary of Mark Duggan's death, a man that was literally on his way to murder another black man. I mean, can they at least find a poster child who doesn't have an extremely questionable criminal past at best?

#criminallivesmatter

 

[Martino Quackavelli]

lots of white people in this thread dismissing black people protesting against racist policing. said white people have no experience of racist policing because they are white, so shitting on a protest seems a little dodgy. are the police Racist with a big r? i dunno, we have a lot of history of racist coppers: the profiling of irish, steven lawrence etc. maybe we have turned everything around substantially and we are all hunky dory now. maybe not. i do think dismissing this movement, which is in its infancy over here, as just hipsters latching onto a cause or whatever is a bit insensitive but hey ho

 

[Abertawe]

They are hipster and their militancy causes more harm than good. Police will target the weakest targets, that's just what they do, whether that be a 'gang' of black youths in Hackney or a 'gang' of white youths in Mansfield it doesn't matter. These are just attention seeking dweebs trying to have their moment. Stupid pricks should be sent back in time to experience what actual prejudice was, they'd soon change their spoilt little minds.

 

[Martino Quackavelli]

They are hipster and they're militancy causes more harm than good.

*their

 

[Abertawe]

Warra lying editing quote manipulating dweeb.

 

[G.B]

i reckon all lives matter me. except for house flies, they can get fucked.

 

[Jockney]

[QUOTE="Mustard, post: 465681, member: 254"]If there is any institutional racism in this country (and I don't doubt there is - but it's nowhere near the extent that there is in the US, which even then is overplayed), it certainly isn't to the extent where you can be a twat and try to disrupt people going on holiday.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Mustard]

[QUOTE="Mustard, post: 465681, member: 254"]If there is any institutional racism in this country (and I don't doubt there is - but it's nowhere near the extent that there is in the US, which even then is overplayed), it certainly isn't to the extent where you can be a twat and try to disrupt people going on holiday.

[/QUOTE]

No I'm not. What do you think they achieved today? Reading the comments online all they've done is piss a lot of people off. Not exactly 'fighting the power' is it. Their hatred towards the police really was misdirected toward Martha and her family trying to get to Fuengirola for a few days. It achieves nothing positive.

People need to stop shying away from the fact that black people are more likely to commit crimes in a lot of places than other ethnicities. It's not because they are black, but because of class and social factors. Mark Duggan wasn't shot because he was black, but because he had a reputation of being a c***. I know an armed officer who was at that party mansion murder last week in Surrey, and I can't tell you how close one bloke was to being shot by an officer. Not because he is black, but because he was at a party with guns and gangs present. In that situation it is easy to see why the police would be on edge, but I can guarantee that if he was shot, the media would have made it a race issue.

 

[Aber gas]

The protest itself was a bit strange but it's fucking weird to dismiss the protests because we "apparently" don't have a problem with institutional racism. ( that's nonsense btw) . It's perfectly fine to show solidarity with something happening elsewhere or did I miss a meeting where it was decided that we only give a shit about stuff that only effects our immediate environment.

 

[Aber gas]

It's a load of horseshit. The UK race problem is minimal compared to that of the US, it's much more a class issue. All BLM does is in the UK is create an us vs them mentality when there isn't one, it's divisive and irresponsible. These people are often more racist than the people they chastise. If you are black citizen in the UK you are extremely unlikely to be shot by a police officer simply because the majority of our police aren't even armed, so why are these people pretending it is our issue, and that they can do anything about it? The same goes for unlawful killing by any method - extremely rare.

If a black man was shot in Lambeth by a police officer, do these people reckon the American BLM campaigners would be shutting down the roads leading to JFK? This screams of people trying to be seen to be doing the right thing and gain Twitter followers, when in reality they are so misguided as to the actual issues this country faces. If there is any institutional racism in this country (and I don't doubt there is - but it's nowhere near the extent that there is in the US, which even then is overplayed), it certainly isn't to the extent where you can be a twat and try to disrupt people going on holiday.

It's actually kind of hilarious that they did this on the anniversary of Mark Duggan's death, a man that was literally on his way to murder another black man. I mean, can they at least find a poster child who doesn't have an extremely questionable criminal past at best?

#criminallivesmatter

So it's ok to shoot people on suspicion of criminal activity ? No gun was found. The Officer was shot by another police officer and the police's actions after the shooting were shady( I'm being kind) .

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm totally fine with people protesting social causes and stuff, so long as it has zero bearing on my day to day life, and doesn't cause any aggro.

 

[Jockney]

No I'm not. What do you think they achieved today? Reading the comments online all they've done is piss a lot of people off. Not exactly 'fighting the power' is it.

What does this even mean? When have protests ever been designed to reach the agreeable only, and when have they ever not been disruptive? Do you think the Civil Rights-era sit-in protesters were warmly received by the mainstream?

Their hatred towards the police really was misdirected toward Martha and her family trying to get to Fuengirola for a few days. It achieves nothing positive.

Have you even listened to BLM UK leaders and/or participants in the media post-demonstrations? Quotes are easy to find online and to reduce their cause down to 'hatred towards the police' only reveals your own ignorance. They've also explained why they picketed Heathrow.

People need to stop shying away from the fact that black people are more likely to commit crimes in a lot of places than other ethnicities. It's not because they are black, but because of class and social factors.

For fuck's sake, honestly.

Mark Duggan wasn't shot because he was black, but because he had a reputation of being a c***.

And BLM UK activists are not protesting because they think Mark Duggan was a Saint, but because he was shot in one of the poorest, most diverse wards in North London which has been hit by austerity harder than anywhere else; where black people (especially black youths) are 30 fucking times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than whites; where, after the riots, kids were sent down for nicking designer clothes on bids more suited to violent criminals; because the ensuing investigation was fraught with a lack of transparency and accountability that came, and has always come, to sickeningly characterise Met and IPCC procedure.

Don't talk about people and areas you don't understand. Arsenal fan from Berkshire, man, kmt, it's a double whammy of upper-middle class shelteredness.

 

[Mustard]

So it's ok to shoot people on suspicion of criminal activity ? No gun was found. The Officer was shot by another police officer and the police's actions after the shooting were shady( I'm being kind) .

Except a gun was found. You have to put yourself in the position of the police here, they pull up a bloke who they know has a gun and is supposedly on a way to a revenge attack, they are going to be on edge and fearing for their own lives. People take it for granted that these officers were putting their lives on the line to pick up this bloke. In these situations, not everything goes to plan.

What does this even mean? When have protests ever been designed to reach the agreeable only, and when have they ever not been disruptive? Do you think the Civil Rights-era sit-in protesters were warmly received by the mainstream?

Civil rights protests can garner a lot of support, like the junior doctors strikes (initially). Here all they've achieved is alienating a lot of people and weakening their cause. Plenty of protests involve doing something illegal or disruptive, but shutting down a road to an airport is never going to sit well with people. It makes me question, do they want attention to their cause, or does they (i.e. the Vice journalist (oxymoron) who organised this) want attention for themselves?

Have you even listened to BLM UK leaders and/or participants in the media post-demonstrations? Quotes are easy to find online and to reduce their cause down to 'hatred towards the police' only reveals your own ignorance. They've also explained why they picketed Heathrow.

Yes I have. I've mentioned institutional racism already but I think you and I both know their main issue lies around the police, hence the deaths of Sean Rigg, Sarah Reed, Mzee Mohammed and Mark Duggan featuring heavily in their campaign. The video they put out starts with deaths in custody, of which there were 17 last year, 15 of whom were white. 11 deaths total the previous year, only one of whom was black. What is the relevance of this to BLM UK? 1563 deaths in custody since 1990, 156 were black or ethnic minority. This is a non-issue. The BLM message should be 'Black Lives Matter Too', but all I take take from this is 'Only Black Lives Matter', which is unfortunate. It's a terrible example for BLM UK to use, and only seeks to create a racial issue where there isn't one.

Regarding their other issues, I'm not sure how thousands of immigrants drowning can be blamed on institutional racism in the UK. And apparently monitoring communities where terrorists are statically more likely to come from is racist, not just common sense. The higher unemployment of black women is a class issue, not because of the colour of their skin.

And BLM UK activists are not protesting because they think Mark Duggan was a Saint, but because he was shot in one of the poorest, most diverse wards in North London which has been hit by austerity harder than anywhere else; where black people (especially black youths) are 30 fucking times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than whites; where, after the riots, kids were sent down for nicking designer clothes on bids more suited to violent criminals; because the ensuing investigation was fraught with a lack of transparency and accountability that came, and has always come, to sickeningly characterise Met and IPCC procedure.

Not sure what austerity has to do with BLM, again that's a class issue. Black Caribbean and Black African groups are over-represented among crime offenders in Haringey. As are those between 18-24. A lot of the crime is gang involved, of whom half the accused are 15-17. 89% of the accused are black. This is all from the Haringey website, rather than hearsay. Targeting these demographics isn't racist, or ageist, but sensible, regardless of whether stop and search is actually an effective tactic to use. Nobody ever says it is sexist when mostly young men are targeted, figure out why that is. For what it's worth I can see why stop and search isn't fair on a lot of people, and the current PM is actually very against it, but her reforms that decreased the practice 40% have coincided with a 16% rise in knife crime in London, and there is an argument it is a necessary evil even if ill executed at times, and potentially divisive between police and the communities they serve.

The IPCC are desperate to nail a copper down. They actually recommended further transparency/accountability of the police following the Mark Duggan investigation which can certainly improve.

The harsh sentences extended to white looters too. Plenty of examples. And the one example I found online of a bloke getting done for stealing designer clothes was Adrian Nnamdi who stole £400000 worth of designer clothes so hardly a small crime. He only got 18 months too, doesn't seem disproportionate.

You can add to all of this that the police have discharged weapons just 7 times in the past year. You have blokes running around knifing tourists in Russell Square and we're still using non-lethal force. Duggan getting shot was an extremely rare incident in the UK thankfully, and this isn't an issue like what BLM US is primarily protesting. There have only been two police caused deaths this year, both white victims. Some of the cases BLM UK bring up are decades old. It screams of trying to latch on the the US BLM bandwagon when their grievances don't really apply here.

Don't talk about people and areas you don't understand. Arsenal fan from Berkshire, man, kmt, it's a double whammy of upper-middle class shelteredness.

I have a dad who was in the met. I have an uncle who was in the met. I have a sister in the police. I have a brother-in-law in the police. It's very arrogant to assume other people don't understand. I'm not black from Tottenham but the internet is a great equaliser, and I don't need to be black from Tottenham to have an insight into their lives, the issues they face, their opinions on the matter. I certainly don't need to be black from Tottenham to have an opinion on the matter myself. Not sure what being an Arsenal fan has to do with it although I know you have a chip on your shoulder about us, whatever you feel discredits my opinion I guess.

 

[Jockney]

Civil rights protests can garner a lot of support, like the junior doctors strikes (initially). Here all they've achieved is alienating a lot of people and weakening their cause. Plenty of protests involve doing something illegal or disruptive, but shutting down a road to an airport is never going to sit well with people. It makes me question, do they want attention to their cause, or does they (i.e. the Vice journalist (oxymoron) who organised this) want attention for themselves?

Trade union disputes and civil rights activism are two different things. Members of a union have legal recourse and their voices can be heard through official channels.

Yes I have. I've mentioned institutional racism already but I think you and I both know their main issue lies around the police, hence the deaths of Sean Rigg, Sarah Reed, Mzee Mohammed and Mark Duggan featuring heavily in their campaign. The video they put out starts with deaths in custody, of which there were 17 last year, 15 of whom were white. 11 deaths total the previous year, only one of whom was black. What is the relevance of this to BLM UK? 1563 deaths in custody since 1990, 156 were black or ethnic minority. This is a non-issue. The BLM message should be 'Black Lives Matter Too', but all I take take from this is 'Only Black Lives Matter', which is unfortunate. It's a terrible example for BLM UK to use, and only seeks to create a racial issue where there isn't one.

You recognise institutional racism as being a thing but then chastise BLM for 'creating a racial issue'. I don't understand. I think it's clear why BLM UK are using those high profile incidents in their campaign: because the public doesn't seem to care about the profiling and mistreatment of young black and POC people on a day to day level by the police.

Regarding their other issues, I'm not sure how thousands of immigrants drowning can be blamed on institutional racism in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonialism

And apparently monitoring communities where terrorists are statically more likely to come from is racist, not just common sense. The higher unemployment of black women is a class issue, not because of the colour of their skin.

I've heard of the drop for BAME men & women post-2010/2011 but don't know enough about this to comment. The closure of ESOL centres across the country makes it difficult for many migrant women in North and East London, though. I've seen that firsthand unfortunately.

Not sure what austerity has to do with BLM, again that's a class issue. Black Caribbean and Black African groups are over-represented among crime offenders in Haringey. As are those between 18-24. A lot of the crime is gang involved, of whom half the accused are 15-17. 89% of the accused are black. This is all from the Haringey website, rather than hearsay. Targeting these demographics isn't racist, or ageist, but sensible, regardless of whether stop and search is actually an effective tactic to use. Nobody ever says it is sexist when mostly young men are targeted, figure out why that is. For what it's worth I can see why stop and search isn't fair on a lot of people, and the current PM is actually very against it, but her reforms that decreased the practice 40% have coincided with a 16% rise in knife crime in London, and there is an argument it is a necessary evil even if ill executed at times, and potentially divisive between police and the communities they serve.

Do you see a correlation or even a causation between poverty, crime and demographics. Genuine question.

The harsh sentences extended to white looters too. Plenty of examples. And the one example I found online of a bloke getting done for stealing designer clothes was Adrian Nnamdi who stole £400000 worth of designer clothes so hardly a small crime. He only got 18 months too, doesn't seem disproportionate.

Of course plenty of harsh sentences were given to white rioters, too, but there are racial components involved in class struggle and there is social if not economic mobility afforded to white British people in the way that it is not afforded to POC. Also four years for 'inciting riots' on FB. LOL.

I have a dad who was in the met. I have an uncle who was in the met. I have a sister in the police. I have a brother-in-law in the police. It's very arrogant to assume other people don't understand.

No, now I understand perfectly. I disagree with the choices your family have made. I'll hold my tongue on this one.

I'm not black from Tottenham but the internet is a great equaliser,

and I don't need to be black from Tottenham to have an insight into their lives, the issues they face, their opinions on the matter.

You need to at least have lived in these boroughs or in boroughs like it.

I certainly don't need to be black from Tottenham to have an opinion on the matter myself.

You can have a shit opinion on whatever you want, mate. I certainly can't stop you.

Not sure what being an Arsenal fan has to do with it although I know you have a chip on your shoulder about us, whatever you feel discredits my opinion I guess.

It was a joke, mate. Though I reckon I lay a better claim to understanding your club better, what with having grown up in Hackney 'n' all.

 

[Benito]

BLM is a racist anti white terrorist organization no different to the Black Panthers.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

In a way I think the name "Black Lives Matter" doesn't particularly help in this country. I don't believe there are notable problems in the UK with police unjustly killing black people disproportionately, I don't think there is a trend of police killing many people unjustly, when it does happen it seems to be fairly isolated incidents. What I think there is a problem with is how non-white people are often treated by police. I would argue that this is more an indicator of class than race, and that you see the same kind of attitudes towards "chavvy" looking white kids as you do to black kids from the police.

What I do know for sure though is that my experience growing up in London with the police as a white kid was very very different to that of black classmates, even ones from wealthy backgrounds. You can talk about the disproportionate carrying of knives by black kids etc, but just imagine for a second you are a fully law abiding young black man, who does nothing illegal, has his head screwed on and all that. You are repeatedly stopped and searched. You go out with friends, you are stopped. You are on your way home, you are stopped. You are doing everything you can to have a good life, good job etc, yet simply because of the colour of your skin you are stopped over and over again.


If anyone thinks that you wouldn't have a shit opinion of the police and the general authorities as a result, you are deluded.

 

[Alty]

I thought the Police Federation's statement on the UK movement - available here - summed things up quite well.

On the US movement, the recent discussion between Sam Harris and Glenn Loury is well worth a listen. It's available in loads of places.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I thought the Police Federation's statement on the UK movement - available here - summed things up quite well.

On the US movement, the recent discussion between Sam Harris and Glenn Loury is well worth a listen. It's available in loads of places.

On top of that, 1565 deaths related to police officers since 1990, only 156 from the black and ethnic minority communities.... that's 10%, yet I'm even seeing Corbyn trot out that it is disproportionate?

If somebody can explain to me how it is, I'm all ears and it by no means suggest we have no work to do on hate crimes and racism etc, but that whole "black people and ethnic minorities die disproprionately" appears to be demonstrably inaccurate.

 

[Abertawe]

It isn't inaccurate cuz that's a higher percentage the population as a whole but we've not got serious issues with the feds doing in ethnic minorities either. I've got a mate who was in the met and he claims back in the early 2000's they were actually told to avoid stopping black people. Obviously stats prove it didn't exactly help but interesting nonetheless.

 

[TheMinsterman]

BAME make up 13/14% of the population and make up the same percentage of deaths in police custody between 2004-2016 according to fullfact.org. They also make up 145 out of 1028 deaths in custody between 1990-2016, again not drastically different to their percentage in the population. If you have some statistics that look at black people specifically (everywhere I've found only uses black and ethnic minorities as a homogenised group) which show the percentage they make up in those which demonstrate they're twice as likely to die in custody by all means provide them.

Where BAME make up a much larger percentage though is in deaths by shooting, around 30% between 2004-2016 according to fullfact.org and some 11 out of 60 (so just over 1/6th) between 1990-2016 according to Inquest.

https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/
http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody
http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/bame-deaths-in-police-custody

 

[Abertawe]

I thought Bame was more like 8%. I think 14% is an unacceptable percentage. Thank goodness for brexit.

 

[Monkey]

Are we allowed to call them Blacks then?

I've always said darkies but that's not PC now :-(

 

[Leo]

Are we allowed to call them Blacks then?

I've always said darkies but that's not PC now :-(

Blacks, Black people are ticketyboo mate. Calling them coloured is apparently offensive....

 

[Stevencc]

I like to call them Mike if they are called Mike, Robert if they are called Robert and so on.

 

[Monkey]

I like to call them Mike if they are called Mike, Robert if they are called Robert and so on.

That's a nice way to do things. Never looked at it that way.

 

[Stevencc]

That's a nice way to do things. Never looked at it that way.

Thanks, Monkey.