The Labour Thread

GodsGift · Sep 20, 2016

It was fairly interesting but it didn't reveal a great deal more than we already knew, i.e. the left see this as a great opportunity to take control of the Labour party and will look to get "anti-Corbyn" MPs out as soon as possible.

The rest was all fairly meagre.

Habbinalan · Sep 23, 2016

I guess it's a generation thing but this contribution from John Harris struck a chord for me.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/09/new-times-john-harris-why-labour-losing-its-heartland

Abertawe · Sep 23, 2016

Only thing stopping Labour from storming to election success are the Blairites FACT

Captain Scumbag · Sep 24, 2016

Well, that caps off the worst coup d'état ever.

.V. · Sep 24, 2016

Abertawe said:
Only thing stopping Labour from storming to election success are the Blairites FACT

How will he turn around his personal polling numbers, to the extent that he can lead the party to a 7%+ swing (assuming no changes to boundaries), without Scotland?

Look Out There Are Llamas · Sep 24, 2016

.V. said:
How will he turn around his personal polling numbers, to the extent that he can lead the party to a 7%+ swing (assuming no changes to boundaries), without Scotland?

Mass killings of Conservative voters? Seems the only feasible way.

Aber gas · Sep 24, 2016

Anyway...
The fight back in Scotland begins.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/779238153454493696

Jockney · Sep 24, 2016

He will ally with SNP and Greens, that's what's going to happen.

.V. · Sep 24, 2016

Jockney said:
He will ally with SNP and Greens, that's what's going to happen.

You don't think Labour linking up with the SNP will cost them English seats? That line of attack seemed to work well for the Conservatives 18 months or so ago.

Jockney · Sep 25, 2016

.V. said:
You don't think Labour linking up with the SNP will cost them English seats? That line of attack seemed to work well for the Conservatives 18 months or so ago.

Not if all three agree to field a single candidate between them per constituency.

Alty · Sep 25, 2016

Jockney said:
Not if all three agree to field a single candidate between them per constituency.

SNP will be in prime position in almost every Scottish seat in that case. What will be the point of the Labour Party in Scotland? The morale - and therefore membership and organisation - will completely collapse, surely?

I can see the merit in parties standing aside in certain places. For example, UUP or DUP stepping aside in majority nationalist constituencies in Northern Ireland in order to give the other party a clear run (which worked very well in Fermanagh and South Tyrone). Or UKIP allowing a Eurosceptic Tory or Labour MP to get on with it in certain areas. But Labour and the SNP are fundamentally opposed on a crucial issue. The Labour Party believes in the UK and the SNP wants to destroy it. I think a pre-agreed Labour-SNP alliance in Scotland - with SNP as the senior partner - would be a suicidal move for Labour.

Abertawe · Sep 25, 2016

Only link up would be in the event of a hung parliament. Labour needs to go for em, they've done quite well by saying they're actually an austerity party rather than the nice little progressive line they've been plugging. They just need to sort out this nationalism mentality.

Red · Sep 26, 2016

Alty said:
SNP will be in prime position in almost every Scottish seat in that case. What will be the point of the Labour Party in Scotland? The morale - and therefore membership and organisation - will completely collapse, surely?

I can see the merit in parties standing aside in certain places. For example, UUP or DUP stepping aside in majority nationalist constituencies in Northern Ireland in order to give the other party a clear run (which worked very well in Fermanagh and South Tyrone). Or UKIP allowing a Eurosceptic Tory or Labour MP to get on with it in certain areas. But Labour and the SNP are fundamentally opposed on a crucial issue. The Labour Party believes in the UK and the SNP wants to destroy it. I think a pre-agreed Labour-SNP alliance in Scotland - with SNP as the senior partner - would be a suicidal move for Labour.

Destroy it? Bit melodramatic.

TheMinsterman · Sep 26, 2016

Red said:
Destroy it? Bit melodramatic.

AFCB_Mark · Sep 26, 2016

The Labour - SNP - Green alliance that I know some on the left have been cited as a possible way to over turn the Tories, would be viable in the event of a hung Parliament.

The only issue stopping it, is Labour gaining enough seats to rival the Tories and thus be in a position for Queenie to invite them to go and form a government.

It's possible if Labour really got their act together, but I'm skeptical personally under Corbyn.

Alty · Sep 26, 2016

Red said:
Destroy it? Bit melodramatic.

Not in the slightest. The UK would cease to exist if the SNP got its way.

mnb089mnb · Sep 27, 2016

AFCB_Mark said:
The Labour - SNP - Green alliance that I know some on the left have been cited as a possible way to over turn the Tories, would be viable in the event of a hung Parliament.

Doesn't seem like Labour are interested
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1465...t_with_Caroline_Lucas_in_Brighton/?ref=twtrec

Red · Sep 27, 2016

Alty said:
Not in the slightest. The UK would cease to exist if the SNP got its way.

The UK also consists of Wales and NI.

Alty · Sep 28, 2016

Red said:
The UK also consists of Wales and NI.

Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is 2/3 of a province. The U.K. would cease to have any meaning and a new name would probably have to be thought up.

Anyway, I don't want bits of the country being lopped off and nor do Labour. That's the point.

mnb089mnb · Sep 28, 2016

Alty said:
Wales is a principality.

It is not.

Ian_Wrexham · Sep 28, 2016

Alty said:
Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is 2/3 of a province. The U.K. would cease to have any meaning and a new name would probably have to be thought up.

Anyway, I don't want bits of the country being lopped off and nor do Labour. That's the point.

Wales is not a principality and never has been. Prior to 1284, it was a shifting collection of one or more small Welsh kingdoms, often client states of England and occasionally asserting their independence, together with the quasi-independent Norman Marcher Lordships in the East and South of Wales (and also extended into the border counties - Cheshire, Herefordshire and Shropshire). Between 1216 and 1284 Welsh rulers sporadically asserted, and were sporadically recognised by England as, Princes of Wales though their Principality only encompassed at its zenith much as 2/3 of what is now Wales.

In 1284, the last native rulers of Wales were deposed and the Kingdoms of Gwynedd and Deheubarth (by that time a vassal of Gwynedd) were annexed by the English crown. This principality covered most of the modern-day counties of Gwynedd, Ynys Mon, Flintshire and Ceredigion together with northern Carmarthenshire. The rest of the country continued to be ruled by the feudal statelets that were the Marcher Lordships.

In 1542, Henry VIII abolished the Welsh legal system and brought Wales fully under direct English rule. This abolished the Principality of Wales and the Marcher Lordships and created a single legal jurisdiction: England and Wales. This act also created the Welsh border as we now understand it. This changed a couple of times - most notably in 1972 when Monmouthshire was confirmed as part of Wales.

The position of the 1542 act was clarified by the 1746 Wales and Berwick act that defined England to be "The Kingdom of England, the Dominion of Wales and Berwick Upon Tweed", - a status that persisted until the 1967 Welsh Language act. This began a gradual process of dis-incorporation and legally Wales is now a different country to England.

But Wales is not, and more importantly never has been, a principality.

Abertawe · Sep 28, 2016

I don't think Alty understands how much offence he has caused. Please apologise or withdraw the comment about being a principality, don't wanna have to report it.

Alty · Sep 28, 2016

Ian_Wrexham said:
Wales is not a principality and never has been. Prior to 1284, it was a shifting collection of one or more small Welsh kingdoms, often client states of England and occasionally asserting their independence, together with the quasi-independent Norman Marcher Lordships in the East and South of Wales (and also extended into the border counties - Cheshire, Herefordshire and Shropshire). Between 1216 and 1284 Welsh rulers sporadically asserted, and were sporadically recognised by England as, Princes of Wales though their Principality only encompassed at its zenith much as 2/3 of what is now Wales.

In 1284, the last native rulers of Wales were deposed and the Kingdoms of Gwynedd and Deheubarth (by that time a vassal of Gwynedd) were annexed by the English crown. This principality covered most of the modern-day counties of Gwynedd, Ynys Mon, Flintshire and Ceredigion together with northern Carmarthenshire. The rest of the country continued to be ruled by the feudal statelets that were the Marcher Lordships.

In 1542, Henry VIII abolished the Welsh legal system and brought Wales fully under direct English rule. This abolished the Principality of Wales and the Marcher Lordships and created a single legal jurisdiction: England and Wales. This act also created the Welsh border as we now understand it. This changed a couple of times - most notably in 1972 when Monmouthshire was confirmed as part of Wales.

The position of the 1542 act was clarified by the 1746 Wales and Berwick act that defined England to be "The Kingdom of England, the Dominion of Wales and Berwick Upon Tweed", - a status that persisted until the 1967 Welsh Language act. This began a gradual process of dis-incorporation and legally Wales is now a different country to England.

But Wales is not, and more importantly never has been, a principality.

I stand corrected.

The SNP still want to destroy the UK though.

smat · Sep 28, 2016

A mealy mouthed reply.

Red · Sep 28, 2016

It's as near as we'll get to a full and frank apology :lol:

Red · Sep 28, 2016

Look Out There Are Llamas said:
Mass killings of Conservative voters? Seems the only feasible way.

It's a policy I can get on board with.

Stevencc · Sep 28, 2016

So...is Wales a principality or what?

Aber gas · Sep 28, 2016

Good stuff from Corbyn at conference. Outlining policy and speaking about issues around housing, poverty and exploitation in the workplace.
He also looked confident and relaxed ( which he should) after a trying time.

Aber gas · Sep 28, 2016

Stevencc said:
So...is Wales a principality or what?

I'm going for a tentative NO.

TheMinsterman · Sep 28, 2016

We need to Make Wales a Principality Again.

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